Peer forces super high fees on a mutual close with only local balance

peer forces crazy tx fee on my own to self transaction. Seems very unnecessary. Also happens during low fee periods. Can this be prevented?

https://blockstream.info/tx/42b6333c6a15feeda04549c0eb842ab80858e51c31ecbc3a2b583b718d5c1c19

2020-10-28 21:48:05,631 INFO  f.a.e.i.Peer n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - OUT msg=Shutdown(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,ByteVector(22 bytes, 0x001474d56abcf11c099eff8eb10a4d78af1aeaa4a8cc))
2020-10-28 21:48:05,632 INFO  f.a.eclair.Diagnostics n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - OUT msg=Shutdown(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,ByteVector(22 bytes, 0x001474d56abcf11c099eff8eb10a4d78af1aeaa4a8cc))
2020-10-28 21:48:06,104 INFO  f.a.eclair.Diagnostics n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - IN msg=Shutdown(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,ByteVector(22 bytes, 0x001430c7f666a92cc928a7898eec37667801f0006811))
2020-10-28 21:48:06,104 INFO  f.a.e.i.Peer n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - IN msg=Shutdown(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,ByteVector(22 bytes, 0x001430c7f666a92cc928a7898eec37667801f0006811))
2020-10-28 21:48:06,104 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - using feeratePerKw=FeeratePerKw(Satoshi(253)) for initial closing tx
2020-10-28 21:48:06,105 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - signed closing txid=aa17f16267cf982f8c85b95ea0a4486dadd35e021dcbb3821d1a3927d281a133 with closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(170)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,122 INFO  f.a.e.i.Peer n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - OUT msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(170),ec600bcdafc0fe211e26e89435d9a24f5f8c1e98e20f982524aacc14ffeae0fd604b834686eb1a09041f6402726423dd426cc4221bd43b94e389357cb3f832ad)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,123 INFO  f.a.eclair.Diagnostics n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - OUT msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(170),ec600bcdafc0fe211e26e89435d9a24f5f8c1e98e20f982524aacc14ffeae0fd604b834686eb1a09041f6402726423dd426cc4221bd43b94e389357cb3f832ad)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,433 INFO  f.a.eclair.Diagnostics n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - IN msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(42524),725460a809ed1dee7209c0d6bd3a694dd98ab2591bfec4ea5178c9d3ca30faad68c1f8b3f60bf55f8f3f82abab63a8e3e98f13860f11ee314792bbbb7856aeec)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,433 INFO  f.a.e.i.Peer n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - IN msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(42524),725460a809ed1dee7209c0d6bd3a694dd98ab2591bfec4ea5178c9d3ca30faad68c1f8b3f60bf55f8f3f82abab63a8e3e98f13860f11ee314792bbbb7856aeec)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,434 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - received closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(42524)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,434 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - signed closing txid=fe08176c00a2f719739da13b83834b99cc2a8a56cfe5c78f3f6130cd38d6bf37 with closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(42524)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,435 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - signed closing txid=a405d5ba450bb13a598960f7689e75eb5565eb8b2fbcec29eed98919d6af00a7 with closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(21346)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,435 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - proposing closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(21346)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,453 INFO  f.a.eclair.router.Router SYN n:032cc4541b25e86e39a7d450a979c1a9adbe2878df3a93fcb59c96c700bfe26aa3 - validating shortChannelId=562216x2271x1
2020-10-28 21:48:06,456 INFO  f.a.e.i.Peer n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - OUT msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(21346),d9c644ba2b7209436034b03e926c6eebc477b7eb4bfcbef207fea11b4c7ed3bf780a975fed396de6e80bd5bed0df38df774dc61bada0385a85e0ab511994b0a6)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,456 INFO  f.a.eclair.Diagnostics n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - OUT msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(21346),d9c644ba2b7209436034b03e926c6eebc477b7eb4bfcbef207fea11b4c7ed3bf780a975fed396de6e80bd5bed0df38df774dc61bada0385a85e0ab511994b0a6)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,568 INFO  f.a.eclair.router.Router SYN n:032cc4541b25e86e39a7d450a979c1a9adbe2878df3a93fcb59c96c700bfe26aa3 - got validation result for shortChannelId=562216x2271x1 (awaiting=1 stash.nodes=0 stash.updates=2)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,771 INFO  f.a.eclair.Diagnostics n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - IN msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(38272),fc962a9132899c3eb589efea15f565f9e0b21a42f99163fbb72dff89471c3ec56437a81ea942596a6a39d0e9569745c1c175199a4de94ff1c6182509b97e279c)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,771 INFO  f.a.e.i.Peer n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - IN msg=ClosingSigned(8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9,Satoshi(38272),fc962a9132899c3eb589efea15f565f9e0b21a42f99163fbb72dff89471c3ec56437a81ea942596a6a39d0e9569745c1c175199a4de94ff1c6182509b97e279c)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,771 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - received closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(38272)
2020-10-28 21:48:06,772 INFO  f.a.e.channel.Channel n:03abf6f44c355dec0d5aa155bdbdd6e0c8fefe318eff402de65c6eb2e1be55dc3e c:8706970005bf94fd9237adf4e83f8dd34e1deb621af9d6fb3d7eab8385f22cc9 - signed closing txid=e8fdb7c65b15e63a9f42bc0d046d3fc3dc4a57ea3341468567d54af3ec6ad271 with closingFeeSatoshis=Satoshi(38272)

[viaj3ro]

Thanks for having an open ear and taking the time to explain what is happening behind the curtains.

If so, we may be able to add a desired_feerate to the command, and ensure the closing fee matches that; note however that if your peer refuses to sign for that fee, the only option will be a force-close,

this would actually be really useful. Would love to try this and see how peers react. If it isn’t too much work, I hope to see this implemented soon.

[viaj3ro]

Yeah, I know that it’s not really up to me or eclair but mostly to my peers. That’s why I initially raised this issue with LND https://github.com/lightningnetwork/lnd/issues/4413 and only opened this one since it was a special case with balance only on my side. Was hoping there is a way for such a closing (where peer has no money at stake), fees could maybe be determined by my node alone. But apparently that’s not possible.

What I really don’t understand, is why being more fee efficient is such a low priority. LN promises to be more cost effective than on-chain. It’s the sole reason for it’s existence (yeah, ok, maybe not the only reason, but by far the biggest). But yet, even during almost 2 years of empty blocks, running a routing node is quite expensive even when you only count network fees and ignore everything else like hardware, electricity, opportunity cost, onlinewallet risk, etc. The only reason LN is somewhat operational still, is due to routing node operators donating their BTC satoshi for satoshi in order to keep their nodes running at a loss. That’s not a viable long term strategy and it will only get MUCH, MUCH worse with the next hype cycle and long tx backlogs.

LND doesn’t even have coin control and just creates a giant UTXO mess: https://twitter.com/matt_odell/status/1321806485937098757

And the biggest liquidity provider doesn’t even seem to understand that his coins are unnecessarily wasted for overpaid network fees: https://twitter.com/lnbig_com/status/1299320526507311104

Unfortunately, the real balance at all nodes is slowly decreasing every day, despite the fees. It is difficult to understand the reason, because the funds are scattered in different places that are constantly changing: pending/opening/closing channels, wallets and etc.

I’m really at a loss here. Seems like I’m the only one who really cares even though it’s most definitely hurting everyone. Probably most people don’t actually realize how much they are losing. Will ask the RTL guys to ad a network fee info panel into their dashboard. Maybe this will help to highlight the issue.

I really have a hard time seeing how LN can survive in a high fee environment without serious improvements. If it doesn’t happen soon, node operators will start throwing in the towel and it will be easy to discredit LN which in turn will hinder adoption or might even keep it in it’s little economically meaningless niche where it is right now.